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what i have to say about this Academy/Lyceum kerfuffle - when you don't know what to do... — LiveJournal
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what i have to say about this Academy/Lyceum kerfuffle
(This post is made in response to these two posts in the sca community and this one in doniago's personal journal.)

Apparently someone in the Northern Region of the East Kingdom perceives some sort of gap or disconnect among the artisans and/or teachers and students of the region (or the Kingdom, I'm not sure where this perceived problem is supposed to exist), and s/he thinks that this scheme will close the gap.

What I think s/he fails to realize is that the teachers ARE the students. There are not two strata of A&S society, and EKUs are not the only places where learning happens. There are email lists and communities, guilds and local A&S meetings, and friends getting together all over the place to do what they do. I have never felt alone in my pursuit of my chosen area of A&S endeavor. I have never felt without resources, and I have never felt like the A&S community at large and the EKU staff in particular didn't care about what I was trying to do, both as an artisan and as a teacher.

Until someone can show me a mission statement for what this scheme is trying to accomplish, can point to actual evidence that there is a real and serious problem with what we as an A&S community are doing for each other, and that
this scheme will fix that problem
(rather than tweaking the existing structure), I remain opposed to it.

i feel: annoyed annoyed

18 trips or shoot the rapids
From: tattycat Date: May 2nd, 2008 07:48 pm (UTC) (base camp)
I'm never in favour of a plan that seems as. . . vague as the one he presented. I have no idea how I would feel if it were more fleshed out-- although the likelihood of me feeling exactly as you do is quite high-- but I am automatically suspicious of lack of detail. In my experience, vague plans never end well.
hugh_mannity From: hugh_mannity Date: May 2nd, 2008 07:51 pm (UTC) (base camp)
It seems to be a bad case of a bureaucracy looking for something to fuck up.

On the one hand they're talking of granting degrees; on the other they're saying that they won't do any sort of quality control on who or what gets taught.

Sour grapes by wanna-be Laurels? Or more likely, never-will-become-Laurels.

You can't have any sort of teaching establishment offering credentials or other sorts of paperwork unless you have very clear standards and curricula.

albreda From: albreda Date: May 2nd, 2008 08:14 pm (UTC) (base camp)
Actually, it is their statement that they WILL have quality control (ie vet teachers) that most freaks ME out; self-appointed judges are never a good thing.
tashabear From: tashabear Date: May 2nd, 2008 08:16 pm (UTC) (base camp)
And yet Iago has back-pedaled that one, too. Thank goodness you can't edit comments that someone has replied to, or there might be all sorts of revisionism.
albreda From: albreda Date: May 2nd, 2008 08:48 pm (UTC) (base camp)
I *know* this was something they talked about originally. If they are backpedalling on it/leaning this way now, it is likely due to the reaction they are getting to it, which to me means they are learning, and this is a GOOD thing.
tashabear From: tashabear Date: May 2nd, 2008 08:20 pm (UTC) (base camp)
The sheer impossibility of that intention boggles me. The professionals in my area of study (Norse textiles) often disagree with each other. How can someone NOT familiar with what the literature is saying tell me whether or not I'm presenting "misinformation"? I'm afraid that I'd have to get pretty rude if they tried to pull that shit with me.
albreda From: albreda Date: May 2nd, 2008 08:49 pm (UTC) (base camp)
OH yeah - approved Apron dress curricula would be VERY interesting, eh?
kuzu_no_ha From: kuzu_no_ha Date: May 2nd, 2008 08:17 pm (UTC) (base camp)
"It seems to be a bad case of a bureaucracy looking for something to fuck up."

oh my word yes! I kept trying to put a name to it and was failing. It just gives me the heebie geebies.

I honestly think the whole thing is downright ridiculous.
I have only been to one EKU and the rest of my teaching and learning has been elsewhere. If I can't find what I want on my own or am just in need of someone else's perspective, I track them down.

I just don't see a problem with what we have now.
I guarantee that if I came into the society with that sort of crap running around I would have turned around and not given the sca another thought.

tashabear From: tashabear Date: May 2nd, 2008 08:23 pm (UTC) (base camp)
That's just it -- why do we need to spoon feed people? If you really care about what you're doing, you seek out the resources to get it done. You don't wait to be shown.
albreda From: albreda Date: May 2nd, 2008 08:52 pm (UTC) (base camp)
Eh - maybe we just all that sort of go getters, or maybe we just don't all even KNOW how to hunt down that sort of information. I don't think we need *this*, but I also don't subscribe to the idea that folks should have to hunt, beg and generally earn access to information, either.
tashabear From: tashabear Date: May 2nd, 2008 08:58 pm (UTC) (base camp)
No, but they should at least have to ask instead of having it shoved down their throats. I don't think there should be One True Answer in SCA A&S, and that's where this scheme is trying to go, IMO. I love finding out other people's perspectives on their research and the applications thereof -- One True Answer would kill that.
albreda From: albreda Date: May 2nd, 2008 09:04 pm (UTC) (base camp)
Completely agreed. Learning to gauge the relevance/validity of the evidence a teacher presents is as important a skill for a student to learn as any, if the resulting 'scholar' is going to have any sort of ability to engage in actual academic enquiry in the future themselves. The idea that these students who received 'approved' curricula would then go out in teach themselves *without* such skills frightens me enormously.
tashabear From: tashabear Date: May 2nd, 2008 09:20 pm (UTC) (base camp)
And that is why I think that people who don't participate in A&S or the EKU system themselves are the absolutely
people to promulgate this scheme. They don't know what it takes to be an artisan or a teacher in this environment, and yet they're presuming to tell us how to go about our business. The arrogance is almost overwhelming.
noveldevice From: noveldevice Date: May 3rd, 2008 03:28 am (UTC) (base camp)
I don't like the term "degree", and I didn't like the way the initial statements about the "degree" were positioning it.

Call it a certificate of completion and it would be less squicky, in my opinion. This group of people, whoever they are, does not have the authority to confer a degree.
albreda From: albreda Date: May 3rd, 2008 11:40 am (UTC) (base camp)
Agreed again. Word choice does not seem to be a particular forte of the Committee's; nor does modesty.
albreda From: albreda Date: May 2nd, 2008 07:58 pm (UTC) (base camp)
A mission statement is pretty darned critical. So far there have been lots of little paperworky/listy/organizationy things mentioned, some of which turn my stomach and some of which (like a database of who teaches what, *NOT* who they SAY can teach what, etc) could actually be useful (and, in this case, which Erlan has already incorporated), and not much real REASON given for most of the rest, other than 'well, other Kingdoms do it, and have folks that like it, so why not?" Lots of folks smoke pot and beat their kids, too - that doesn't sell me either.
nazrynn From: nazrynn Date: May 3rd, 2008 12:57 am (UTC) (base camp)
Hrm. Let me open up that post from a few days ago a little more....
nazrynn From: nazrynn Date: May 3rd, 2008 01:02 am (UTC) (base camp)
18 trips or shoot the rapids